On the eve of the Eisteddfod Colin Miles describes the frustrations and problems of an Englishman learning the language
August 3rd, 2012When I was at Swansea University in the early 1960s the Welsh language was notable only by its absence. In truth the impression I got was that it was virtually a dead language. Obviously, this was not the case. So when we moved back to Wales seven years ago almost the first thing we did was to enroll for Welsh classes – initially with WLPAN then on to Pellach, Canolradd, and so on.
How successful has this been? In my case, I’m afraid, not very much. With the aid of a dictionary – well several actually – I can make a reasonable stab at translating from Welsh into English. But when it comes to speaking or writing it is a different matter. I can, with difficulty and some effort, make myself understood in both areas. However, when writing I normally include both the English and the Welsh so that my tutor knows what I am really trying to say. And as for speaking, mine is more what you might call pidgin Welsh.
So what are the problems? Well, certainly not anything like the ones that Welsh speakers seem to think they are. They identify some of them but not the most important ones. Often they do not even understand or realise, for instance, which words are ‘difficult’ or ‘uncommon’ and need to be translated for any given vocabulary. Instead they often repeat words that most learners already know. And this is true for both the courses and the Welsh learner books.
Let me take another instance. In Canolradd, Uned 29 there is a tasg – beth sy fwya anodd wrth ddysgu Cymraeg. And there is a list, which you are asked to discuss with your partner and put in order of difficulty. Here it is:
- deall y treigladau
- cofio pethau
- siarad â phobol
- deall y newyddion
- cael yr amser i adolygu
- darllen llyfrau Cymraeg
- tafodieithoedd gwahanol
- sefyll arholiad
This corresponds very badly with my own list. The following had been intended to be in order of difficulty or when I first encountered a problem, but by the time I had gone a little way into it, that went out of the window.
When I first started learning the language my first stumbling block was not mutations but conjunctions and prepositions – simple words like i, o, ar, am, at and their myriad meanings. There is no simple one-to-one relationship between the English and the Welsh. And even now I would rate this as a major problem. Once you stray out of the comfort zone of the phrases you have learnt, and try to say or write something else, you are in an area where there are apparently no rules. Instead, uncertainty rules.
Welsh speakers speak too fast. There is a joke about the Englishman speaking very loudly and very slowly to a foreigner in English. Well, apart from the very loudly bit, it actually makes sense! But do the Welsh understand that? Every Welsh learner is confronted by the situation where s/he feels/knows that if s/he attempts to speak in Welsh s/he will be faced with a torrent of Welsh which s/he doesn’t understand. The result is panic and completely forgetting everything s/he has learnt. Outcome: speak in English.
I am particularly bad at following Welsh conversations and even now am lucky if I manage to understand 75 per cent or more. The difference between the spoken and written word in Welsh is so great it has been said that “There is a case for regarding the spoken and written Welsh as being two separate languages”. This view may have been referring to literary Welsh rather than ‘normal’ written Welsh, but it often seems that it is true of both. Welsh may primarily be a spoken language. Yet, if Welsh speakers cannot read written Welsh it starts to sound as if this division may be true. And what future can a spoken-only language have?
Encouraging us to speak Welsh as often as possible may sound a good idea. And, of course, we will have these little conversions in Welsh at classes, or between ourselves. But if we are speaking rubbish Welsh what good is it? When you are learning a new language you want to learn it properly otherwise why bother? And if written and spoken Welsh are so different it creates an obvious problem.
Apostrophes and missing words are another issue. We are told, “You don’t need to put that word in as it is implied”. And, “The word is missing but the mutation it causes remains”. Why miss words out? And why use apostrophes to the extent that sometimes most of the word is missing? Why make life so difficult?
Welsh is a phonetic language. The priests or whoever it was who decided to write things down as they heard them did the language no favour at all. They saddled it not just with mutations, but the mantra that, “Welsh is easy to learn because it is a phonetic language”. When many letters and combinations of letters sound the same, plus the fact that dialects always exist and living languages always develop and change, it makes it anything but easy.
There is no such thing as standard Welsh. Well, that is what we are told. How can a language survive without standards? You don’t teach Geordie to those newly-arrived at Newcastle, or Cockney Rhyming slang to immigrants at Heathrow bound for the East End.
Then again, there is the north/south divide. When southerners say that they can’t understand a word that north Walians say – I don’t know if the reverse is true –it doesn’t exactly inspire confidence, especially when they apparently just give up. And to us English, used to dialects like Geordie, or the west Country, the differences seem greatly exaggerated.
So many words have dual meanings. Lend/Borrow, Teach/Learn are obvious examples, Sometimes I have to re-read written Welsh in order to work out who is doing what to whom and is it to a person, for a person, or with a person.
Word order is a major preoccupation: Generally the word order is different and that creates a major problem for the English speaker, particularly where verbs are split between phrases. But again there appears to be many exceptions. Plurals: Take any 50 Welsh nouns and the chances are that around 70 per cent of them will form their plurals in completely different ways. And some of the changes are so strange that the singular and the plural look totally unconnected. Incidentally, I highly commend the Geddes & Grosset Welsh-English dictionary because it gives Welsh plurals as separate entries.
Feminine endings cause a headache. Having been given a list of word endings which denoted the feminine, none of the endings of the first 12 words we looked at fell into that list and they were all different.
Yeses and Noes were fine in a more formal age, but how can the many combinations survive in the Internet age? And if they don’t what happens to the ability to read ‘old’ Welsh?
Learning by rote as children do? Adults are NOT children. We don’t learn the same way. We can’t spend five years learning the basics in the way that children do. Yes, we do need to learn some things by rote – grammar is an instance – otherwise we are lost. But we cannot go back to being a child and thinking like a child and being immersed 24 hours in a single language. It is difficult to politely describe the WLPAN idea that we dispense completely with dictionaries and grammar.
I go on to S4C and switch on the sub-titles. OK, I now fully understand that the Welsh and the English languages are often incompatible when it comes to translating from one to another. But this is not helped when Welsh speakers say that they are often amused by the sub-titles bearing little relation to what is actually said. The same kind of thing happens with written translations and you too often find yourself asking the question, how did they get from that to that? Sometimes it is you, sometimes not.
Every language has its particular phrases that have evolved. With a very old language like Welsh there are many such sayings. Again, the lack of proper translation of some, and, indeed, a mistranslation of others, doesn’t help. We don’t mutate, we don’t bother with that – or so older native Welsh speakers will tell you. Then you will be told that they do, but they don’t realise it.
Last but not least are the mutations. We are told it only involves nine letters. Unfortunately 60-70 per cent of words begin with those letters. This is a major stumbling block, not for just the beginning of words, but in the middle as well. Maybe when speaking, assuming that the mutations are used, the meanings can be worked out from the context. If the context isn’t clearly stated then sometimes the meaning in written Welsh can become ambiguous because of the mutation. What are the solutions? I don’t know and as an Englishman I cannot presume to more than make suggestions. But first I would suggest that you have to look at the problems inherent in the language. If you were to think of it in terms of efficiency of information transfer, that is conveying meaning, then obviously Welsh suffers from many problems. But the biggest one is probably the gap between the written and spoken word.
How do you close the gap? First of all there should be a standard Welsh like the standard Hebrew that was established and was taught in the original WLPAN – not a success incidentally if you read the follow-up. As to how Welsh is taught in schools I have few ideas other than it should be taught rigorously (both spoken and written) otherwise the gap between the two will never close.
I do know that children who attend the local Welsh primary school play in English, which is not a good sign. One can hope that later on they regain some of their pride in the language. Yet without constant use even native Welsh speakers will lose it. As for teaching people like me this, in cold financial terms, is not cost-effective. We will never be fluent Welsh speakers or writers. Far better spend the money in the schools. But you also need the support of people such as myself otherwise we will neither understand or appreciate what is being done, so a balance has to be struck.
There are other Welsh attitudes to take into account as well. In general, there is goodwill towards the language, but it is a fragile thing. The antics and attitudes of some Welsh campaigners risks losing it. For the people at saysomethinginwelsh.com to support Osian being sent to prison by sending him a letter of support may just about be acceptable. However, to then bring up John Redwood and suggest that the YouTube video be passed around is just childish.
A further problem is the financial one. Translation costs are an overhead that the other side of the border doesn’t have. Large corporations can usually manage this extra cost, though the pressure is on everyone these days. But for charities this can be a bit of a killer if the requirement becomes mandatory. And, sad to say, when you look at the usage of the written language, including the Welsh sections of web sites, which I have a particular interest in, at times it borders on the non-existent.
What bugs me in particular is that Welsh speakers/ writers seem massively unwilling to step up and fill in the gaps. They complain that a web site is English only but won’t do anything about it. If I were a Welshman in that position I’d do something about it. Without a proper understanding of the problems of the Welsh language and Welsh attitudes no amount of money thrown at it will improve the situation.
Tags: Canolradd, mutations, phonetic langauge, S4C, Subtitles, translation, Uned 29, welsh language, Welsh learners, WLPAN
Colin’s experiences and observations as a ‘Welsh learner’ make interesting but unsurprising reading. As an ‘outsider’ he will remain forever thus and I suggest he puts an early end to his frustrations and becomes outstandingly proud of his international native tongue.
There is a strong correlation between the Welsh language and lower levels of economic development in areas across Wales and the flexing of muscle by the new Commissioner should be treated with caution. Those who fawn at her feet should look to the reality of our situation and fight every inch of the way to resist the unreasonable and self-interested demands of a few bureaucrats on the majority of wealth generating and dynamic organisations who operate in the tough world of business. It is these who generate the taxes to pay for the education of our children, health services, care of the elderly. Imposition of further unnecessary demands will lead to haemorrhaging of valuable scarce resources and distancing of investors faced with bizarre language demands. As one company commented when leaving Wales to set up over the border “Sorry, but the only two languages we need are English and Microsoft”. We live in a 21st century global economy and the Commissioner should tailor her demands to the future not the past.
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The frustrations of the writer are natural and typical of most learners of languages, until you reach a stage of acceptance rather than annoyance.
I am always amazed at the ability of learners of English to speak fluently in a language that has so many inherent contradictions. The author has problems with prepositions in Welsh, this is similar to the problems English students encounter with phrasal verbs. Phrasal verbs are the use of a preposition to change the meaning of a verb -
give up
give off
give away
give in
give over
I am amazed that students of English are able to use phrasal verbs when they seem to defy logic and have to be learnt by heart. They almost seem to be used deliberately to make things hard for the student.
Each language is different, the trick is to accept theses differences rather than complain that they are different.
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I agree with Billy, all of the problems that the learner has come up against are the same that we come across when we learn a different language.
I must admit I learnt Welsh and it has helped me quite a lot in my work (I work in Design and IT), it has enabled me to work with different groups of people and get involved in all kinds of different activities. Lots of my friends speak Welsh and the language seems to be going from strength to strength. One thing that I do find though, is that there are a lot of people that have either failed or can’t be bothered to learn that like to moan about the people that can speak or are learning – It’s often the way sadly.
I’m not entirely sure where Mary gets her data from, it’s quite annoying to see something written and not supported by evidence, but it’s so often the way these days. “There is a strong correlation between the Welsh language and lower levels of economic development in areas across Wales”, In what sectors – Tourism, IT, Heritage, HE? Would that be in the South where there are more Welsh speakers, or in the north where there is a larger concentration?
I don’t know if I’d learn Microsoft, especially as they have made a loss this year. Maybe we should look to Apple… or should that be Afal?!
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Couldn’t agree more with Mary. Now is the time to outlaw the Welsh language, in order to allow rapacious multinationals the free space they require to “play with Wales”, as one venture capitalist told me recently. Also, it is time that we sold off the National Museums and National Library. Think of all that land. Surely executive housing could replace them. Overall, the sooner we ditch this ‘Wales’ thing the better for all concerned. Let us set our children free! Am I joking or am I serious? In these crazy nationalistic times of Team GB, who can tell?
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I sympathise with some of Colin’s complaints. Welsh is no doubt a difficult language to learn, although certainly much easier for an English speaker than some other languages (e.g. Korean, Arabic or Chinese). But as implied by Billy Pilgrim above he does seem to be basing many of his comments on the assumption that the English language is some kind of perfect archetype of which all other languages are deviations. We all tend to assume that our native language is easy, because we never had to learn it. If Welsh speakers are able to naturally grasp the grammar and rules of their language and are correspondingly unable to appreciate the difficulty others may find in it, then this is no more true of Welsh than it is of any other language, especially English, as Billy Pilgrim suggests! While I’m sure Welsh speakers could do more to facilitate learners, to imply that inherent linguistic issues in the language itself are a significant barrier to its progress seems spurious.
Certainly, I’ve often heard it complained of the WLPAN course that the deliberate refusal to address grammar frustrates some learners, especially those used to more “conventional” methods of language learning. It might be well suited for some but for those who prefer to understand the way a language works I’d like to see a more “traditional” course on offer. Also, I agree that the differences between North and South (which are almost entirely accent and vocabulary) are exaggerated and this probably doesn’t help learners either.
If Welsh-speaking kids use English on the playground then this is not because Welsh is “more difficult” than English, but rather down to social and cultural factors. Kids who speak English at home are likely to speak English by default in school. In my (Welsh medium) school, whether a conversation took place in Welsh or English had virtually nothing to do with the individuals’ grasp of Welsh and was mostly determined by who was speaking with whom.
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Mary and Mark, you are on the money here. I suggest that to expedite the process, all people suspected of ‘Welsh Tendencies’ which manifest themselves in uneconomic traits such as unusual first and second names, a tendency to mutate, holding a ball rather than kicking it or displaying un-entrepreneurial characteristics (a fondness of song, poetry and non-corporate culture) and the such-like are removed from The Enterprise Zone Formerly Called Wales for a minimum of three generations for re-settlement and re-education. Then all assets can be bought by private equity firms (Play With Wales LLP and The Cambrian Cleansing Co), to be ‘proactively leveraged’ and sold back to third generation returnees who can demonstrate that they have been elevated to a higher degree of understanding.
Of course, a 21st Century Global Economy needs global consistency. Thus it is encouraging to know that only two languages matter, namely English and Microsoft. There is no place for Afal, let alone Linux in such a world and certainly not Ada. I trust that this axiom is applied worldwide and the campaign is therefore extended to all countries to create a world fit for investment bankers to live in.
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Dyfal donc a dyr y garreg.
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I moved to Wales seven years ago from Portsmouth and became fluent in Welsh within a year, partially as a result of Wlpan and partially as a result of learning the language at university and meeting a girl from Ruthin. Having learnt the language both Wlpan style and in a more formal, grammar-based style I can honestly say that many of the problems Colin complains about are ones seemingly artificially created by Wlpan, rather than being inherent in Welsh. There is in fact a Welsh standard, which contains all of those apostrophised missing letters, and shows clearly the grammatical reasons for the inexplicable mutations Colin talks of, it’s called literary Welsh, and it’s not as distinct from the Welsh spoken day to day as people would have you believe. I speak Ceredigion Welsh and my fiancee speaks Flintshire Welsh, but apart from an ongoing argument over llaeth/llefrith we have no problems understanding one another. The missing letters found so liberally in Cwrs Wlpan have mostly been replaced by apostrophes in a misguided attempt to de-formalise the language in an attempt to get every learner to speak in the dialect of the area he or she is learning in, which is all very well but does lead to a situation where the learner is utterly unprepared to deal with anyone not speaking or writing the local dialect (in its Wlpan approved ‘learner-friendly’ form). As regards efficiency of information transfer, I have completed two degrees through the medium of Welsh and found it just as efficient as English; all languages are efficient at this, if they weren’t then we wouldn’t do it that way. I feel strongly that the best way to become a fluent speaker, rather than a good learner of Welsh, or indeed any language, is to speak it as often as possible, particularly with native speakers. The idea that we who learnt the language as adults will never be fluent speakers or writers is more than a little insulting, most of my close friends are Welsh speakers, and the language of our social group is Welsh, yet only a minority of us are native born. ‘Learner’ is a stage to go through, not a constant state of existence.
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Welsh isn’t any harder to learn than other languages, the traditional teaching methods just don’t work very well. I’m native Finnish speaker and fluent in English mostly because my interest in all things science fiction, not so much because of the efforts of the school. After all, I’m totally unable to speak Swedish after studying it for six years.
But I can speak Welsh more or less fluently after 2,5 years of learning online with Say Something in Welsh (http://www.saysomethinginwelsh.com/). They method is the best I’ve ever come across anywhere. SSiW makes you speak from the start without making things difficult with grammar terms. Why teach learners grammar when it don’t exist? No, it really don’t. Or do you think the grammar when speaking your native language?
You want more Welsh speakers in Wales? Then they should be doing SSiW lessons.
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It’s sad that so many people who want to learn to speak Welsh are not succeeding. But some people do learn to speak Welsh, so maybe it makes more sense to look at what works rather than at what doesn’t.
I started learning Welsh two and a half years ago and I am now perfectly comfortable speaking Welsh all day long. I have a number of friends with whom I speak (and write) only in Welsh and I read the news each morning on BBC Cymru. In the beginning, I wanted to sign up for a traditional class but that was impractical for me, so I looked for online options. I came across saysomethinginwelsh.com and have been using their courses as the foundation for my Welsh learning ever since. I’ve supplemented SSiW by reading a few grammar books (mainly Gareth King’s “Modern Welsh”), watching S4C with Welsh subtitles and listening to lots of Radio Cymru. I have also sought out immersion opportunities wherever possible, including the highly valuable “bootcamps” organised by SSiW.
I was recently told by a Welsh tutor that only about 5 to 10% of people on traditional courses go on to become Welsh speakers. I suggest that it’s time to look at new approaches that incorporate the huge advantages of new technologies to help people succeed and enjoy speaking this beautiful language.
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I hope Colin doesn’t lose heart. Learning any new language as an adult can be very challenging, and those who spend time doing so deserve all of our support and respect.
Having said that (and I write as someone who is lucky enough to be a native Welsh speaker), I can’t help but feel that the complaints above amount to “Welsh is different to English” and “learning is hard”, which are trivially true. Every language is odd in its own little ways. This includes English, even though that language’s prominence normalises its own inherent quirks. For example, Colin complains about the various ways in which Welsh forms plurals, as if the very same thing isn’t true in English (which it certainly is!). Additionally, I refer the author to the classic example of English oddity: the -ough suffix – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ough_%28orthography
Welsh is what it is. Mutations, boggling though they can be for learners, aren’t just an abstract concept manufactured out of whole cloth by ivory tower academics. They exist because in Welsh it just made sense to say things this way. To the native Welsh ear, “fy ci” sounds odd. Hence “fy nghi”. I have no doubt that it would make things a lot easier for learners if they were eradicated (in fact I predict they will become far less common in the near future as the language evolves naturally) but in the meantime I’m not sure what to say to those who complain about them. It’s just how the language works at the moment. Sorry!
Perhaps the aspects of the language that Colin writes about will gradually disappear naturally, precisely because Welsh is going to need enthusiastic learners like himself in order to thrive (or even survive). In the meantime, pob lwc a dalier ati!
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A very interesting article – I hope Colin sticks at it, as the rewards of learning Welsh are huge and cannot easily be conveyed in English!
As someone who has learned Welsh to fluency as an adult, I would encourage Colin to try to look at learning Welsh in a different way:
1. We all get frustrated as Welsh learners – but it’s really important to learn to accept, even embrace, the quirks and differences between Welsh and English, rather than fight them.
2. Learning Welsh is very much a case of ‘the perfect is the enemy of the good’ – throw yourself in, don’t worry about mistakes – you’ll get there!
3. Use the basic Welsh you have creatively, rather than struggling to translate English thoughts into Welsh.
4. Welsh is a really diverse and inexact language – that’s simply the reality of it. It has retained an astonishing diversity of dialects to a degree that has been lost in English. The great thing is that as a learner, you have the freedom to use the language that comes naturally. The tricky bit is getting used to the different vocabulary etc that are in use.
5. Be brave and use your Welsh as much as you can. Even if it’s just a few words with a work colleague or friend. You can learn so much more this way than in lessons alone.
6. Teaching methods/Wlpan. Not always to everyone’s taste and sometimes it feels repetative/childish – but the fact is that it WORKS. You’ll soon get on to the more interesting stuff.
7. Do the most intensive course you can manage/afford – v hard to learn with just 1 lesson per week.
So well done for learning and good luck! Welsh has boosted my career, given me fun and rewarding experiences, helped me make friends and opened my eyes to culture. I recommend it to anyone – with a bit of persistance you can become pretty fluent quite quickly.
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Another learning tip – go to Youtube and take a look at the Welsh pop / folk feeds. Quite a few of these have the lyrics in Welsh and English. Keep up and the speed issue becomes less challenging. It is fascinating to see / hear how a singer like Dafydd Iwan uses polysylabic words (“dwi wedi penderfynu bod yn rhydd”) as a sounboard for his tunes. I have also found that as many of the singers are from the North, the commonalities in the language quickly stand out above the differences between the various regional forms. Plethyn, Dafydd Iwan and Gwyneth Glyn sing clearly. Pob lwc!
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