Comments on: Examinations reform and the limits of Welsh devolution http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/10/examinations-reform-and-the-limits-of-welsh-devolution/ Fri, 24 May 2013 15:49:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4 By: I Williams http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/10/examinations-reform-and-the-limits-of-welsh-devolution/comment-page-1/#comment-284808 I Williams Sat, 02 Mar 2013 21:24:28 +0000 http://www.clickonwales.org/?p=16230#comment-284808 Curious to know what evidence there is to support the claim that Welsh first language speakers are less literate and numerate than their non Welsh speaking cousins. This assertion is patently ridiculous. Are the Dutch less numerate? The Germans? To debate the failings of the Welsh education system and strive for continuous improvement is healthy. To scapegoat the language is not. Only in Britain is being bilingual seen as a hindrance! As for giving children choice - I agree up to a point. One of my sons often says maths is "boring". Is Jacques suggesting he should be allowed to forego a rudimentary mathematical education? Many of the posters here are clearly operating from an English standpoint, demonstrating both a fundamental lack of understanding as to why one would ever need or would want to communicate in Welsh, and a disregard for the educational needs of children who are first language Welsh speakers. The debate should be around how we create a first rate Welsh medium education system rather than what I appear to be reading here, that Welsh schools are failing therefore make them less Welsh for them to succeed. Are we really saying that native Welsh speaking children are doomed to an English education because of the bigotry of English parents? Curious to know what evidence there is to support the claim that Welsh first language speakers are less literate and numerate than their non Welsh speaking cousins. This assertion is patently ridiculous. Are the Dutch less numerate? The Germans?

To debate the failings of the Welsh education system and strive for continuous improvement is healthy. To scapegoat the language is not. Only in Britain is being bilingual seen as a hindrance!

As for giving children choice – I agree up to a point. One of my sons often says maths is “boring”. Is Jacques suggesting he should be allowed to forego a rudimentary mathematical education? Many of the posters here are clearly operating from an English standpoint, demonstrating both a fundamental lack of understanding as to why one would ever need or would want to communicate in Welsh, and a disregard for the educational needs of children who are first language Welsh speakers.

The debate should be around how we create a first rate Welsh medium education system rather than what I appear to be reading here, that Welsh schools are failing therefore make them less Welsh for them to succeed. Are we really saying that native Welsh speaking children are doomed to an English education because of the bigotry of English parents?

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]]> By: Hendre http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/10/examinations-reform-and-the-limits-of-welsh-devolution/comment-page-1/#comment-154988 Hendre Sat, 03 Nov 2012 10:03:09 +0000 http://www.clickonwales.org/?p=16230#comment-154988 Yes, but who's being 'macho' ? Wales, Northern Ireland and England have had shared qualifications for what, fifty years or so? That's been dismantled unilaterally by Michael Gove with little or no consultation. By calling the new qualification the 'English bacc' he has deliberately shut the door on any discussions on a common way forward. Yes, but who’s being ‘macho’ ? Wales, Northern Ireland and England have had shared qualifications for what, fifty years or so? That’s been dismantled unilaterally by Michael Gove with little or no consultation. By calling the new qualification the ‘English bacc’ he has deliberately shut the door on any discussions on a common way forward.

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]]> By: Jon Jones http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/10/examinations-reform-and-the-limits-of-welsh-devolution/comment-page-1/#comment-154399 Jon Jones Fri, 02 Nov 2012 16:33:55 +0000 http://www.clickonwales.org/?p=16230#comment-154399 You are quite wrong Malcolm; the clearest divergence between Wales and England is compulsory Welsh in schools and Welsh Medium/English Medium Education. Think it through; how do we compare ourselves with England when it comes to GCSE results and key stage assessments? We use Core Subject Indicator and we use Level2 + English&Maths.....except that in Wales CSI includes an either/or option Welsh L1 or English and Level2+ English &Maths also has a Welsh L1 option. So for many years now we have actually gone our own way. It seems like common sense doesn't it; Welsh is equal to English and so obviously that's how we have to measure school success...either/or. Except that maths doesn't recognise ideological decisions such as this. Welsh Medium Primary schools have long benefitted from being measured against CSI when half of the pupils can fail to get level 4 at Key stage 2 in English, but as long as they pass Welsh L1 the school can still claim 100%. Wales has allowed itself to be lulled by assurances from the Welsh Language Board and the WAG and several tame academics that pupils in Welsh Medium schools do as well in English as pupils in English Medium schools. The only trouble is that it's nonsense. Not only that but in adulthood people who speak Welsh as a first language are not only less likely to be literate in English than first language English speakers, they are also less likely to be numerate. Last year Welsh Medium and bilingual schools benefitted by 2% on the Level 2+ E/W&maths. This year they benefitted by 3% on that measure. That is 356 pupils in two years alone who didn't get English A*-C but were counted as Level2+.......no wonder WM schools look good even while they are failing! At every stage of education in Wales, Welsh medium schools are behind comparable English Medium schools when it comes to English and Maths. Nevertheless we have the Welsh in Education department and several Local Authorities, primed by decades old WLB propaganda, still telling the same old lies to parents about the superiority of Welsh Medium education. There is only one way for Wales to protect this "House of Cards" where nothing is as it seems, they have to have an examination system that hides failure. In Wales the Political parties are all between a rock and a hard place...they all have to pay lip service to the Welsh Language totem but they can't allow anyone to question whether the drive for complete bi-lingualism in Wales is actually good for Wales. Imagine this; we have a minister that has two responsibilities Welsh Language and culture and Education. Let's assume that neither Leighton Andrews nor the civil servants in the department of Education are stupid. They therefore KNOW that either Education or Bi-lingualism is going to fail...given this the only trick is to hide that failure. Today Simon Thomas for Plaid has openly questioned the sense of Compulsory Welsh Second Language in schools. Lord help us, it has taken a PLAID AM to say what 88% of Parents have known for a long time! But do you know what the next least successful academic subject was in Welsh Medium schools last year and this? Welsh First Language! Do you know what percentage of pupils in WM and Bi-lingual schools attained Welsh first Language at A*-C this year? Out of 6658 15 year old pupils in WM schools 3711 scored GCSE at A*-C......56% . About the same as last year. You are quite wrong Malcolm; the clearest divergence between Wales and England is compulsory Welsh in schools and Welsh Medium/English Medium Education. Think it through; how do we compare ourselves with England when it comes to GCSE results and key stage assessments? We use Core Subject Indicator and we use Level2 + English&Maths…..except that in Wales CSI includes an either/or option Welsh L1 or English and Level2+ English &Maths also has a Welsh L1 option. So for many years now we have actually gone our own way. It seems like common sense doesn’t it; Welsh is equal to English and so obviously that’s how we have to measure school success…either/or. Except that maths doesn’t recognise ideological decisions such as this. Welsh Medium Primary schools have long benefitted from being measured against CSI when half of the pupils can fail to get level 4 at Key stage 2 in English, but as long as they pass Welsh L1 the school can still claim 100%. Wales has allowed itself to be lulled by assurances from the Welsh Language Board and the WAG and several tame academics that pupils in Welsh Medium schools do as well in English as pupils in English Medium schools. The only trouble is that it’s nonsense. Not only that but in adulthood people who speak Welsh as a first language are not only less likely to be literate in English than first language English speakers, they are also less likely to be numerate.

Last year Welsh Medium and bilingual schools benefitted by 2% on the Level 2+ E/W&maths. This year they benefitted by 3% on that measure. That is 356 pupils in two years alone who didn’t get English A*-C but were counted as Level2+…….no wonder WM schools look good even while they are failing!

At every stage of education in Wales, Welsh medium schools are behind comparable English Medium schools when it comes to English and Maths. Nevertheless we have the Welsh in Education department and several Local Authorities, primed by decades old WLB propaganda, still telling the same old lies to parents about the superiority of Welsh Medium education.

There is only one way for Wales to protect this “House of Cards” where nothing is as it seems, they have to have an examination system that hides failure. In Wales the Political parties are all between a rock and a hard place…they all have to pay lip service to the Welsh Language totem but they can’t allow anyone to question whether the drive for complete bi-lingualism in Wales is actually good for Wales.

Imagine this; we have a minister that has two responsibilities Welsh Language and culture and Education. Let’s assume that neither Leighton Andrews nor the civil servants in the department of Education are stupid. They therefore KNOW that either Education or Bi-lingualism is going to fail…given this the only trick is to hide that failure.

Today Simon Thomas for Plaid has openly questioned the sense of Compulsory Welsh Second Language in schools. Lord help us, it has taken a PLAID AM to say what 88% of Parents have known for a long time!

But do you know what the next least successful academic subject was in Welsh Medium schools last year and this? Welsh First Language! Do you know what percentage of pupils in WM and Bi-lingual schools attained Welsh first Language at A*-C this year? Out of 6658 15 year old pupils in WM schools 3711 scored GCSE at A*-C……56% . About the same as last year.

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]]> By: malcolm prowle http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/10/examinations-reform-and-the-limits-of-welsh-devolution/comment-page-1/#comment-154289 malcolm prowle Fri, 02 Nov 2012 13:16:58 +0000 http://www.clickonwales.org/?p=16230#comment-154289 There seems to be a bit of a parallel debate going on here. As the author of the original blog my aim was to point out the dangers of the Welsh Government taking a macho "we will do our own thing" approach while ignoring the implications of having a different (and perceived inferior) system to England. The second debate appears to be about the merits of EM and WM schools. Although an interesting and important debate it is a different issue to the point I raised. There seems to be a bit of a parallel debate going on here.

As the author of the original blog my aim was to point out the dangers of the Welsh Government taking a macho “we will do our own thing” approach while ignoring the implications of having a different (and perceived inferior) system to England.

The second debate appears to be about the merits of EM and WM schools. Although an interesting and important debate it is a different issue to the point I raised.

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]]> By: Jon Jones http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/10/examinations-reform-and-the-limits-of-welsh-devolution/comment-page-1/#comment-153671 Jon Jones Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:00:35 +0000 http://www.clickonwales.org/?p=16230#comment-153671 I suppose that it’s inevitable that Jaques Protic and Howell Morgan are immediately rubbished on this site, but they both percieve an essential problem in Wales….bi-lingualism in education. The examination system, which is designed to accurately reflect what education pupils have been given and how well each pupil has done within that system, is vitally important. You often hear people (mostly teachers) saying “It’s not weighing the pig that makes it fatter”. A truism that has done irreperable damage in Wales where we stopped accurately “Weighing” our piglets at the end of key stage 2. Now we are looking at diverging from recognised standards once again. The “Welsh Bacc.” is such a foolish divergence. Not that it hasn’t any merit, but to put it on the same value rating as attaining an “A” at A level is a farcical situation. When only 23% of A level pupils in Wales can pass the Bacc, that’s when it should be taken seriously. What has worried me for a long time is the utter stupidity of the push for Welsh Language and Welsh Medium teaching in Wales. Jaques Protic cites an example above; “Linguistic Progression between key stage 2 and Key stage 3″ It’s hard to imagine a more ruinous, perverse and utterly harmful document than this. It’s is based on a strategy jointly undertaken by the late (unlamented) Welsh Language Board and the “Welsh in Education Department” of the WAG and the pilot was administered and evaluated by a private firm, “Sbectrwm” who reported on its success. Its sole objective was to stop the “Drop out” of pupils who enter Welsh Medium Primary schools but then revert to English Medium streams or schools at Key stage 3. Now any rational person would start from this position:- “Why do pupils leave Welsh Medium Education?” “Who are these pupils?” “What would be best for their educational future in Secondary School?” Not in Wales! Because we set up two bodies that have only one aim….the increase in the number of pupils who can speak Welsh, this, to provide more Welsh speakers, was the only imperative. We now have a department within the Education department that has no remit at all to improve education….only to increase the use of Welsh. Wales has become blind to the deterioration of standards in Welsh Medium schools. It’s no good saying that “I went to a WM school and I’m in Cambridge!” or “Look at the international research, that “PROVES” that bilingual education is best.” The truth is very different; many pupils founder in WM Primary schools and many of them don’t recover in English streams in bi-lingual secondary schools. There is just a wilful blindness to the failure of the bilingual system amongst teachers, educationalists and politicians. Take a long hard look at assessments and GCSE results for Welsh Medium and bilingual schools. Don’t bother with a straight comparison of all WM schools against all EM schools, we all know that the massive levels of socioeconomic deprivation in the South and SE. give the middle class WM schools an advantage. Try comparing like with like and then look at “Adult literacy and numeracy in Wales”. That’s where the true measure of the disaster in Welsh Education lies. I suppose that it’s inevitable that Jaques Protic and Howell Morgan are immediately rubbished on this site, but they both percieve an essential problem in Wales….bi-lingualism in education. The examination system, which is designed to accurately reflect what education pupils have been given and how well each pupil has done within that system, is vitally important. You often hear people (mostly teachers) saying “It’s not weighing the pig that makes it fatter”. A truism that has done irreperable damage in Wales where we stopped accurately “Weighing” our piglets at the end of key stage 2. Now we are looking at diverging from recognised standards once again. The “Welsh Bacc.” is such a foolish divergence. Not that it hasn’t any merit, but to put it on the same value rating as attaining an “A” at A level is a farcical situation. When only 23% of A level pupils in Wales can pass the Bacc, that’s when it should be taken seriously.

What has worried me for a long time is the utter stupidity of the push for Welsh Language and Welsh Medium teaching in Wales. Jaques Protic cites an example above; “Linguistic Progression between key stage 2 and Key stage 3″ It’s hard to imagine a more ruinous, perverse and utterly harmful document than this. It’s is based on a strategy jointly undertaken by the late (unlamented) Welsh Language Board and the “Welsh in Education Department” of the WAG and the pilot was administered and evaluated by a private firm, “Sbectrwm” who reported on its success.

Its sole objective was to stop the “Drop out” of pupils who enter Welsh Medium Primary schools but then revert to English Medium streams or schools at Key stage 3. Now any rational person would start from this position:- “Why do pupils leave Welsh Medium Education?” “Who are these pupils?” “What would be best for their educational future in Secondary School?”

Not in Wales! Because we set up two bodies that have only one aim….the increase in the number of pupils who can speak Welsh, this, to provide more Welsh speakers, was the only imperative. We now have a department within the Education department that has no remit at all to improve education….only to increase the use of Welsh.

Wales has become blind to the deterioration of standards in Welsh Medium schools. It’s no good saying that “I went to a WM school and I’m in Cambridge!” or “Look at the international research, that “PROVES” that bilingual education is best.” The truth is very different; many pupils founder in WM Primary schools and many of them don’t recover in English streams in bi-lingual secondary schools. There is just a wilful blindness to the failure of the bilingual system amongst teachers, educationalists and politicians.

Take a long hard look at assessments and GCSE results for Welsh Medium and bilingual schools. Don’t bother with a straight comparison of all WM schools against all EM schools, we all know that the massive levels of socioeconomic deprivation in the South and SE. give the middle class WM schools an advantage. Try comparing like with like and then look at “Adult literacy and numeracy in Wales”. That’s where the true measure of the disaster in Welsh Education lies.

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]]> By: malcolm prowle http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/10/examinations-reform-and-the-limits-of-welsh-devolution/comment-page-1/#comment-151444 malcolm prowle Mon, 29 Oct 2012 12:49:20 +0000 http://www.clickonwales.org/?p=16230#comment-151444 Anthony. I couldnt agree more Anthony.

I couldnt agree more

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]]> By: Anthony James http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/10/examinations-reform-and-the-limits-of-welsh-devolution/comment-page-1/#comment-150270 Anthony James Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:23:26 +0000 http://www.clickonwales.org/?p=16230#comment-150270 The world is large and Wales is small, hardly visible to many outside these islands. However there is no doubt that Wales and the Welsh have much to offer in terms of wit and creativity both in arts and science. If Wales is to thrive it must have a competitive education system which it clearly does not have at this time. The relevance of Gove and co is unavoidable and Leighton Andrews and his chums ought to stop posturing about Welsh independent mindedness and get on (urgently) and ensure Wales offers a demanding, effective system of education first, and one that nurtures the Welsh language second. Any system must create opportunities for young Welsh folk worldwide. It is fair to argue that any system should offer academic as well as vocational streams, this is where Wales perhaps can provide some positive aspirational ideas. Perhaps an innovative system parallel and alternative to the IB. Can the Welsh assembly escape its parochial straightjacket and keep in mind that the future of Welsh youth is the future of Wales? I hope so, but Mr Andrews' early responses do not encourage me at all. The world is large and Wales is small, hardly visible to many outside these islands. However there is no doubt that Wales and the Welsh have much to offer in terms of wit and creativity both in arts and science.
If Wales is to thrive it must have a competitive education system which it clearly does not have at this time. The relevance of Gove and co is unavoidable and Leighton Andrews and his chums ought to stop posturing about Welsh independent mindedness and get on (urgently) and ensure Wales offers a demanding, effective system of education first, and one that nurtures the Welsh language second. Any system must create opportunities for young Welsh folk worldwide.
It is fair to argue that any system should offer academic as well as vocational streams, this is where Wales perhaps can provide some positive aspirational ideas. Perhaps an innovative system parallel and alternative to the IB.
Can the Welsh assembly escape its parochial straightjacket and keep in mind that the future of Welsh youth is the future of Wales? I hope so, but Mr Andrews’ early responses do not encourage me at all.

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]]> By: malcolm prowle http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/10/examinations-reform-and-the-limits-of-welsh-devolution/comment-page-1/#comment-149432 malcolm prowle Fri, 26 Oct 2012 12:34:32 +0000 http://www.clickonwales.org/?p=16230#comment-149432 Mr Williams I dont think Michael Goves approach is the correct one but neither do I think the Welsh approach is correct either. Both are driven by vacuous ideology not pragmatism. What we need is a twin track examination system with a properly resource vocational route. Mr Williams

I dont think Michael Goves approach is the correct one but neither do I think the Welsh approach is correct either. Both are driven by vacuous ideology not pragmatism. What we need is a twin track examination system with a properly resource vocational route.

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]]> By: Jacques Protic http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/10/examinations-reform-and-the-limits-of-welsh-devolution/comment-page-1/#comment-149355 Jacques Protic Fri, 26 Oct 2012 09:51:32 +0000 http://www.clickonwales.org/?p=16230#comment-149355 Carwyn, The only ideology in Welsh education comes strictly from Leighton Andrews and Welsh nationalists and where education is used as a tool to create a ‘Bilingual nation’. Perhaps all well and good if this ideology is shared and widely accepted by people of Wales but no matter what spin or dressing Leighton Andrews and similar use to justify the current policies, the facts is that the vast majority of Welsh children do not have any interest in Welsh language and as long as the Welsh language dominates Welsh curriculum the longer it will take for Welsh educational standards to improve. No politics, ideology or whatever just look at time at task issues and I am sure everyone would agree if school teachers used all the available time to promote numeracy and English language literacy we’d see a lot different and a lot better outcome. To improve Welsh education Leighton Andrews must respect parental choices and separate Welsh Medium and English Medium education and then leave it to the Welsh people to choose how they wish to educate their children. Finally what Llareggub had to say makes a great deal of sense! Carwyn, The only ideology in Welsh education comes strictly from Leighton Andrews and Welsh nationalists and where education is used as a tool to create a ‘Bilingual nation’.

Perhaps all well and good if this ideology is shared and widely accepted by people of Wales but no matter what spin or dressing Leighton Andrews and similar use to justify the current policies, the facts is that the vast majority of Welsh children do not have any interest in Welsh language and as long as the Welsh language dominates Welsh curriculum the longer it will take for Welsh educational standards to improve.

No politics, ideology or whatever just look at time at task issues and I am sure everyone would agree if school teachers used all the available time to promote numeracy and English language literacy we’d see a lot different and a lot better outcome.

To improve Welsh education Leighton Andrews must respect parental choices and separate Welsh Medium and English Medium education and then leave it to the Welsh people to choose how they wish to educate their children.

Finally what Llareggub had to say makes a great deal of sense!

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]]> By: Llareggub http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/10/examinations-reform-and-the-limits-of-welsh-devolution/comment-page-1/#comment-149085 Llareggub Thu, 25 Oct 2012 23:40:03 +0000 http://www.clickonwales.org/?p=16230#comment-149085 Carwyn, I think the fundamental issue for our education system is that Wales is much more closely integrated with England than Scotland is. Half the Welsh population live within 25 miles of the Anglo-Welsh border and there are 100,000 commuters crossing it every day - three times the number commuting between England and Scotland. Therefore we need a qualifications system that, while not necessarily the same as England, is intelligible to and credible with employers and universities on the other side of Offa's Dyke. P Williams, unlike Wales, the Scots have always had a separate education system and it has long enjoyed a reputation for relatively high quality (at least in a British context). I suppose that Wales could import their qualifications wholesale if it wanted, but they are unfamiliar to educators and parents here so it would seem to me a rather unlikely and left-field solution. Carwyn, I think the fundamental issue for our education system is that Wales is much more closely integrated with England than Scotland is. Half the Welsh population live within 25 miles of the Anglo-Welsh border and there are 100,000 commuters crossing it every day – three times the number commuting between England and Scotland. Therefore we need a qualifications system that, while not necessarily the same as England, is intelligible to and credible with employers and universities on the other side of Offa’s Dyke.

P Williams, unlike Wales, the Scots have always had a separate education system and it has long enjoyed a reputation for relatively high quality (at least in a British context). I suppose that Wales could import their qualifications wholesale if it wanted, but they are unfamiliar to educators and parents here so it would seem to me a rather unlikely and left-field solution.

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